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	<title>Comments on: Tomorrow&#8217;s Energy: Nuclear Power</title>
	<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html</link>
	<description>Chronicling and Commenting on Human Progress</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anthony Kendall</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1646</link>
		<author>Anthony Kendall</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 03:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1646</guid>
		<description>Hey look, you don't know everyone in the "environmental movement" any better than I do.  It's certainly not one individual entity with one idea on how to proceed.  I certainly agree that just exposing people to the science will not alter irrational aversions.  

And yes, I mean irrational.  The fear of nuclear waste goes far beyond its actual danger to human health.  This falls into a difference between perceived and actual risk.  Many many more people are afraid of flying because of the spectacular images of plane crashes than are afraid of driving: but driving is the far more risky activity.  Nuclear waste is dangerous, yes, but far less dangerous than many would portray it to be.

I agree that consumption will continue to increase, but I don't think it will increase anything like you say.  There are fundamental limits to human consumption that are set by the environment in which we live and the cost and availability of resources.  Unlike you seem to suggest here, &lt;i&gt;consumption is not evil&lt;/i&gt;.  Consumption beyond the means of the environment to support it is.  But, if we lived in a world in which infinite energy was available to us, and all waste was nearly completely converted back to energy upon disposal, consumption would be like breathing is to us.  It would become an intimate and integral part of our very nature.

If we do not expand our energy supplies while also conserving our ecoystems and the resources they provide, we will get hit by some fundamental limitations that will cause drastic decreases in comfort levels.  But far more threatening to our common future is a population that does not stop its exponential increase.  Our energy supplies have much greater leg room than do our prospects for increasing agricultural yields.

So, let's talk about a different vision of the future.  Let's talk about severely restrained growth rates, even negative population growth, but allowing consumption to expand in a way that is truly sustainable (i.e. millions of years, not just till the next election cycle).  Because let's face it, all the bikes in the world won't keep us safe when there are 15 billion hungry and angry mouths to feed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey look, you don&#8217;t know everyone in the &#8220;environmental movement&#8221; any better than I do.  It&#8217;s certainly not one individual entity with one idea on how to proceed.  I certainly agree that just exposing people to the science will not alter irrational aversions.  </p>
<p>And yes, I mean irrational.  The fear of nuclear waste goes far beyond its actual danger to human health.  This falls into a difference between perceived and actual risk.  Many many more people are afraid of flying because of the spectacular images of plane crashes than are afraid of driving: but driving is the far more risky activity.  Nuclear waste is dangerous, yes, but far less dangerous than many would portray it to be.</p>
<p>I agree that consumption will continue to increase, but I don&#8217;t think it will increase anything like you say.  There are fundamental limits to human consumption that are set by the environment in which we live and the cost and availability of resources.  Unlike you seem to suggest here, <i>consumption is not evil</i>.  Consumption beyond the means of the environment to support it is.  But, if we lived in a world in which infinite energy was available to us, and all waste was nearly completely converted back to energy upon disposal, consumption would be like breathing is to us.  It would become an intimate and integral part of our very nature.</p>
<p>If we do not expand our energy supplies while also conserving our ecoystems and the resources they provide, we will get hit by some fundamental limitations that will cause drastic decreases in comfort levels.  But far more threatening to our common future is a population that does not stop its exponential increase.  Our energy supplies have much greater leg room than do our prospects for increasing agricultural yields.</p>
<p>So, let&#8217;s talk about a different vision of the future.  Let&#8217;s talk about severely restrained growth rates, even negative population growth, but allowing consumption to expand in a way that is truly sustainable (i.e. millions of years, not just till the next election cycle).  Because let&#8217;s face it, all the bikes in the world won&#8217;t keep us safe when there are 15 billion hungry and angry mouths to feed.</p>
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		<title>By: decrease comfort</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1643</link>
		<author>decrease comfort</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 01:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1643</guid>
		<description>easy ways out are like A$$holes, everyone's got one and they eventually spew a bunch of $hit.  Y'all seem quite smart but you seem to think the environmental movement is going to go along with building more nuclear plants if they just understand the science.  Talking about the "long-term" in the U.S. is like a KIA dealer talking about resale value.  The Earth existed quite fine for millions of years, so when somebody encourages sustainability, they mean millions of years, through thick and thin.  So when we go into the next dark ages, some A$$hole doesn't load up a catapult with nuke waste and lob it over our shanty town wall.  Ever heard of payiing it forward?  How about peddling it forward...as in your bike.  If the consumption/comfort levels do not decrease now, we probably will go into the fission age, and the small amount of nuke waste you're talking about will increase....ONE MILLION FOLD, before we finnally say..."hmm, it looks like now we have to decrease our comfort levels, maybe we should have done that way back when we only had ten fingers."  By the way, Thomas Friedman is more self-righteous than....me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>easy ways out are like A$$holes, everyone&#8217;s got one and they eventually spew a bunch of $hit.  Y&#8217;all seem quite smart but you seem to think the environmental movement is going to go along with building more nuclear plants if they just understand the science.  Talking about the &#8220;long-term&#8221; in the U.S. is like a KIA dealer talking about resale value.  The Earth existed quite fine for millions of years, so when somebody encourages sustainability, they mean millions of years, through thick and thin.  So when we go into the next dark ages, some A$$hole doesn&#8217;t load up a catapult with nuke waste and lob it over our shanty town wall.  Ever heard of payiing it forward?  How about peddling it forward&#8230;as in your bike.  If the consumption/comfort levels do not decrease now, we probably will go into the fission age, and the small amount of nuke waste you&#8217;re talking about will increase&#8230;.ONE MILLION FOLD, before we finnally say&#8230;&#8221;hmm, it looks like now we have to decrease our comfort levels, maybe we should have done that way back when we only had ten fingers.&#8221;  By the way, Thomas Friedman is more self-righteous than&#8230;.me.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Kendall</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1621</link>
		<author>Anthony Kendall</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 13:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1621</guid>
		<description>Kevin,
One of the primary bugaboos of the anti-nuclear movement is the word "radioactivity."  Sure, radiation is dangerous both in high acute doses and in elevated chronic exposures.  However, radioactive wastes require an extremely small storage area relative to their energy production.  The Earth is a big place.  I have no doubt in the capability of engineers and geologists to select a site that will safely store radioactive wastes long past the point at which they remain dangerous.

I agree that both hydrocarbons and uranium are limited supplies, and I think renewables have a major role to play in our energy future.  In fact, I think solar energy will be what fuels the human race for millenia to come.  But, until we get to the point where we can harness enough of the virtually limitless energy that the sun outputs, there is no viable renewable solution to meet current energy demands.

I also agree that reducing energy use is a noble goal, and one which should be pursued through methods that do not decrease comfort, safety, or prosperity.  I certainly think we could all do with a little bit less (see my blog post, "Better Off?"), but the broader public is not going to accept that anytime soon.  The environmental movement has pushed conservation for decades to little or no success, unfortunately.

I am a realist.  I see major benefits to American society through things like increased public transit, denser residential areas, and increased consumption of local and organic produce.  But, I care too much about the environment for me to be unyielding on the limited danger of nuclear energy in light of the enormous dangers inherent in &lt;i&gt;fossil fuel&lt;/i&gt; burning (hydrocarbon burning, i.e. vegetable ethanol, is a significantly less harmful course).

Continue to live carefree, Kevin.  I believe you that anyone can, hell my energy is renewable too.  But I don't believe that everyone will, and I want a brighter future with a few compromises, rather than a black and lonely future where I kept to my righteous principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />
One of the primary bugaboos of the anti-nuclear movement is the word &#8220;radioactivity.&#8221;  Sure, radiation is dangerous both in high acute doses and in elevated chronic exposures.  However, radioactive wastes require an extremely small storage area relative to their energy production.  The Earth is a big place.  I have no doubt in the capability of engineers and geologists to select a site that will safely store radioactive wastes long past the point at which they remain dangerous.</p>
<p>I agree that both hydrocarbons and uranium are limited supplies, and I think renewables have a major role to play in our energy future.  In fact, I think solar energy will be what fuels the human race for millenia to come.  But, until we get to the point where we can harness enough of the virtually limitless energy that the sun outputs, there is no viable renewable solution to meet current energy demands.</p>
<p>I also agree that reducing energy use is a noble goal, and one which should be pursued through methods that do not decrease comfort, safety, or prosperity.  I certainly think we could all do with a little bit less (see my blog post, &#8220;Better Off?&#8221;), but the broader public is not going to accept that anytime soon.  The environmental movement has pushed conservation for decades to little or no success, unfortunately.</p>
<p>I am a realist.  I see major benefits to American society through things like increased public transit, denser residential areas, and increased consumption of local and organic produce.  But, I care too much about the environment for me to be unyielding on the limited danger of nuclear energy in light of the enormous dangers inherent in <i>fossil fuel</i> burning (hydrocarbon burning, i.e. vegetable ethanol, is a significantly less harmful course).</p>
<p>Continue to live carefree, Kevin.  I believe you that anyone can, hell my energy is renewable too.  But I don&#8217;t believe that everyone will, and I want a brighter future with a few compromises, rather than a black and lonely future where I kept to my righteous principles.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Chavis</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1609</link>
		<author>Kevin Chavis</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1609</guid>
		<description>Lots of assumption. "We can probably bury them in the ground"  and " The radioactive wastes that are produced are much less hazardous than by conventional fusion" 

So we should go with cheap, stable energy even if it might ruin our environment through radioactivity?  

Maybe you should do a bettery job of promoting nuclear. Perhaps prove it is benign to the environment. I doubt that you ever could, as we continue making piles of waste that will be around millions of years longer than we will.  Future generations of humans will pay for your selfishness and greed. 

Hydrocarbons are finite. So is uranium. Our best bet are clean renewables and greatly reduced energy use. If Costa Ricans can live as long as Americans do on 5% of US energy use per capita - I think humans can survive on MUCH MUCH  less.  

I live carfree in Minneapolis.  If I can do it anyone can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of assumption. &#8220;We can probably bury them in the ground&#8221;  and &#8221; The radioactive wastes that are produced are much less hazardous than by conventional fusion&#8221; </p>
<p>So we should go with cheap, stable energy even if it might ruin our environment through radioactivity?  </p>
<p>Maybe you should do a bettery job of promoting nuclear. Perhaps prove it is benign to the environment. I doubt that you ever could, as we continue making piles of waste that will be around millions of years longer than we will.  Future generations of humans will pay for your selfishness and greed. </p>
<p>Hydrocarbons are finite. So is uranium. Our best bet are clean renewables and greatly reduced energy use. If Costa Ricans can live as long as Americans do on 5% of US energy use per capita - I think humans can survive on MUCH MUCH  less.  </p>
<p>I live carfree in Minneapolis.  If I can do it anyone can.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthonares &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Windpower: Where Some Greens Goes Bad</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1293</link>
		<author>Anthonares &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Windpower: Where Some Greens Goes Bad</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-1293</guid>
		<description>[...] Windpower: Where Some Greens Goes Bad  [Conservation, Environment, Environmentalism, Global Warming, Wind Energy]As I&#8217;ve gone to lengths to discuss in previous posts like this one about nuclear energy, I&#8217;m green to the core. Nevertheless, I have some serious disagreements with prominent parts of the environmental movement including my belief that nuclear energy will be a key source of energy into the future. Wind energy is shaping up to be another of those decisive battles within the green community that will determine its course for years to come. The two sides of the debate represent two very different philosphies about environmentalism: pragmatism versus conservationalism. I&#8217;m not going to mince words here, the conservationalist side of this debate spouts arguments that are frankly illogical or are altogether unproven. The pragmatic side has everything right, including ironically the conservation part.  On the pragmatic side of this battle stand the geo-greens, those who believe that going green represents not only saving the environment but also protecting national interest by reducing our dependance on foreign energy supplies. Allied with them are the folks in the environmental movement who believe that preserving the natural environment is the best way of preserving human health and prosperity&#8211;ecosystem services provide much of the wealth that our nation and the rest of the world depends on. The rallying cry for these people is Jared Diamond&#8217;s recent work Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. In it he describes how failures of environmental management led to the downfall of a number of prosperous and powerful civilizations throughout recorded history. These folks all believe that wind energy has great potential to supply much of the world&#8217;s energy supply in the near future. Not only that, but the economic opportunity that wind energy provides may help to revitalize parts of the heavy-industrial sectors in our country that have fared so poorly over the last few decades. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Windpower: Where Some Greens Goes Bad  [Conservation, Environment, Environmentalism, Global Warming, Wind Energy]As I&#8217;ve gone to lengths to discuss in previous posts like this one about nuclear energy, I&#8217;m green to the core. Nevertheless, I have some serious disagreements with prominent parts of the environmental movement including my belief that nuclear energy will be a key source of energy into the future. Wind energy is shaping up to be another of those decisive battles within the green community that will determine its course for years to come. The two sides of the debate represent two very different philosphies about environmentalism: pragmatism versus conservationalism. I&#8217;m not going to mince words here, the conservationalist side of this debate spouts arguments that are frankly illogical or are altogether unproven. The pragmatic side has everything right, including ironically the conservation part.  On the pragmatic side of this battle stand the geo-greens, those who believe that going green represents not only saving the environment but also protecting national interest by reducing our dependance on foreign energy supplies. Allied with them are the folks in the environmental movement who believe that preserving the natural environment is the best way of preserving human health and prosperity&#8211;ecosystem services provide much of the wealth that our nation and the rest of the world depends on. The rallying cry for these people is Jared Diamond&#8217;s recent work Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. In it he describes how failures of environmental management led to the downfall of a number of prosperous and powerful civilizations throughout recorded history. These folks all believe that wind energy has great potential to supply much of the world&#8217;s energy supply in the near future. Not only that, but the economic opportunity that wind energy provides may help to revitalize parts of the heavy-industrial sectors in our country that have fared so poorly over the last few decades. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Kendall</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-140</link>
		<author>Anthony Kendall</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-140</guid>
		<description>Bruce,
I absolutely love your comment about nuclear families causing more damage than nuclear power every year, that's great!  You're serious point about word association is well taken though, nuclear weapons certainly cast a long shadow on nuclear power.

I'm sure your career in nuclear engineering would have gone well too, there is still a lot of good work being done there, just much that has yet gotten out of the laboratory!

Perceived vs. Actual risk is a really interesting thing to think about, and is, I'm sure, an active area of psychological research.  We humans are not really that good at computing the odds on a regular basis, and even if we can compute them, our penchant to believe superstition is much deeper than our logical reasoning.  So, in our reptilian brains we believe nuclear to be dangerous, though our cortices may argue otherwise the reptile in us wins most of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,<br />
I absolutely love your comment about nuclear families causing more damage than nuclear power every year, that&#8217;s great!  You&#8217;re serious point about word association is well taken though, nuclear weapons certainly cast a long shadow on nuclear power.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure your career in nuclear engineering would have gone well too, there is still a lot of good work being done there, just much that has yet gotten out of the laboratory!</p>
<p>Perceived vs. Actual risk is a really interesting thing to think about, and is, I&#8217;m sure, an active area of psychological research.  We humans are not really that good at computing the odds on a regular basis, and even if we can compute them, our penchant to believe superstition is much deeper than our logical reasoning.  So, in our reptilian brains we believe nuclear to be dangerous, though our cortices may argue otherwise the reptile in us wins most of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: FlyingSinger</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-139</link>
		<author>FlyingSinger</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-139</guid>
		<description>Yes indeed, a great job on this.  You are a one-man version of "science in the public interest."  When I got my B.S. in physics and was deciding on grad school in (gulp) 1975 I was choosing between nuclear engineering and optics - I chose the latter, which  was a lucky choice in light of what has happened to the nuclear power industry since the 70's (plus optics has been great).  

We really need more people to bridge the gap between "doing what's best for people and the environment" and "anything 'nuclear' must be dangerous, bad, and/or beyond human control."  There's guilt by association with nuclear weapons because they share the word "nuclear" - when nuclear families probably harm more people every year ;)  We can't ignore safety, of course, but nuclear power can be safe.  It's also related to the average person's limited understanding of the nature of risk. The more familiar (car rides or coal burning) may SEEM safer than the less familiar (airliners or nuclear power), but the statistics may show otherwise.  But most people don't go by statistics, they go by what "makes sense."  So we need more communication like this article.  I also admire how you strive to live green as well as talk it -- more than most people (including me!).

-Bruce</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes indeed, a great job on this.  You are a one-man version of &#8220;science in the public interest.&#8221;  When I got my B.S. in physics and was deciding on grad school in (gulp) 1975 I was choosing between nuclear engineering and optics - I chose the latter, which  was a lucky choice in light of what has happened to the nuclear power industry since the 70&#8217;s (plus optics has been great).  </p>
<p>We really need more people to bridge the gap between &#8220;doing what&#8217;s best for people and the environment&#8221; and &#8220;anything &#8216;nuclear&#8217; must be dangerous, bad, and/or beyond human control.&#8221;  There&#8217;s guilt by association with nuclear weapons because they share the word &#8220;nuclear&#8221; - when nuclear families probably harm more people every year <img src='http://www.anthonares.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  We can&#8217;t ignore safety, of course, but nuclear power can be safe.  It&#8217;s also related to the average person&#8217;s limited understanding of the nature of risk. The more familiar (car rides or coal burning) may SEEM safer than the less familiar (airliners or nuclear power), but the statistics may show otherwise.  But most people don&#8217;t go by statistics, they go by what &#8220;makes sense.&#8221;  So we need more communication like this article.  I also admire how you strive to live green as well as talk it &#8212; more than most people (including me!).</p>
<p>-Bruce</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Kendall</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-138</link>
		<author>Anthony Kendall</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-138</guid>
		<description>Tom aka "I can't find the knob on the J",
Thanks!  Yeah, normally the whole anti-nuclear/green connection is taken for granted, but I think increasingly views are changing.  I am a rootinist-tootinist-capitalist though, and not so friendly to anti-globalization stuff either.  Maybe I'll post about that some day.  One nice thing about blogs is that they give individuals whose views don't fall neatly within the confines of one political party or ideological movement the chance to fully state their own views.  And, for others to criticize them freely!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom aka &#8220;I can&#8217;t find the knob on the J&#8221;,<br />
Thanks!  Yeah, normally the whole anti-nuclear/green connection is taken for granted, but I think increasingly views are changing.  I am a rootinist-tootinist-capitalist though, and not so friendly to anti-globalization stuff either.  Maybe I&#8217;ll post about that some day.  One nice thing about blogs is that they give individuals whose views don&#8217;t fall neatly within the confines of one political party or ideological movement the chance to fully state their own views.  And, for others to criticize them freely!</p>
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		<title>By: Tp,</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-136</link>
		<author>Tp,</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-136</guid>
		<description>Fantastic article!  I am glad to hear that you can be pro-nuclear power and still green.  I think a lot of the anti-nuclear sentiment is due to misinformation and misunderstanding.  Like you said, this is are only long term option that ultimately has the least amount of pollution and meteorological effects (i.e. hydro power slowing rivers to the point of severe destruction, too many wind turbines actually stopping normal weather progression somewhat, not to mention killing passing birds).  

The most interesting part of your article is how much effort you felt that you had give to convince everyone how green you are, because if you endorse nuclear power, then you must be a wicked, rootinist-tootinist-pollutinist right-wing conservative anti-environment powermonger capatalist pig.  

Anyway, I think your assessment is very well thought out and scientifically justified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic article!  I am glad to hear that you can be pro-nuclear power and still green.  I think a lot of the anti-nuclear sentiment is due to misinformation and misunderstanding.  Like you said, this is are only long term option that ultimately has the least amount of pollution and meteorological effects (i.e. hydro power slowing rivers to the point of severe destruction, too many wind turbines actually stopping normal weather progression somewhat, not to mention killing passing birds).  </p>
<p>The most interesting part of your article is how much effort you felt that you had give to convince everyone how green you are, because if you endorse nuclear power, then you must be a wicked, rootinist-tootinist-pollutinist right-wing conservative anti-environment powermonger capatalist pig.  </p>
<p>Anyway, I think your assessment is very well thought out and scientifically justified.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-137</link>
		<author>Tom</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anthonares.net/2006/01/tomorrows-energy-nuclear-power.html#comment-137</guid>
		<description>wong name... tp was supposed to be Tom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wong name&#8230; tp was supposed to be Tom.</p>
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